{"id":14766,"date":"2026-04-16T08:00:26","date_gmt":"2026-04-16T12:00:26","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/?p=14766"},"modified":"2026-04-25T01:45:02","modified_gmt":"2026-04-25T05:45:02","slug":"ice-and-the-police-state","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/test02\/2026\/04\/ice-and-the-police-state\/","title":{"rendered":"ICE and the Police State"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><strong><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">Tempest Collective:<\/span> We have seen mass deployment of United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) across the country\u2014but also mass resistance to this, notably in Los Angeles, Chicago, and Minneapolis. This has opened some conversations about how we understand the role of ICE agents in the context of a broader shift in policing strategies after the Black Lives Matter protests of 2020.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">Alec Karakatsanis:<\/span> The most important thing to do in this situation is to understand that whatever institution of repression we&#8217;re talking about\u2014whether it&#8217;s a local police force, or state troopers, or the traditional federal so-called intelligence agencies, or border patrol, or what&#8217;s now called ICE\u2014these are all very similar institutions that have very similar goals, functions, and purposes. If you take a longer historical view and if you take a more functional, materialist perspective on what role these institutions play in any unequal society, they&#8217;re all essentially doing the same thing.<\/p>\n<p>So, I think it&#8217;s a mistake to talk about ICE as if it&#8217;s separate from all of these other institutions of repression. Speaking, obviously very crudely, the main function of these institutions is to preserve distributions of inequality along various dimensions. Some of these institutions are targeted at preserving inequality along more narrow, specific dimensions, each of these institutions has their focus on a different segment of marginalized people, and each has a different kind of justification in terms of the mythologies that are told to society about why a particular institution, like ICE, exists. In general, they&#8217;re all doing the same thing. They&#8217;re trying to control people who don&#8217;t have any power and to preserve the ability of people who own things in our society to exclude other people from the things that they own.<\/p>\n<p>I think we&#8217;re in the middle of a couple of big overall shifts. Again, speaking in broad brushstrokes, we are seeing a shift from an era of mass human caging to an era where that kind of mass human caging is seen by people in power and powerful institutions as less necessary than before, and we&#8217;re moving into more of an era of control through increasingly centralized forms of surveillance. They are all deploying these technological platforms\u2014the databases, the cloud computing, the artificial intelligence, the voice recognition, the face recognition, the body cameras, all of that stuff\u2014and all of the same vendors and multinational corporations, and investors and are involved at every level of the policing and ICE continuum. And that&#8217;s happening across what I&#8217;ll call the repressive bureaucracies.<\/p>\n<p>The second big shift over the last few years and in the next five to ten years is from a focus on mass criminalization through the formal domestic legal system to a focus on borders and exclusion and capacity for mass detention through less formal means.<\/p>\n<p>I think that we will see more and more of the oppressive architecture of the state directed at preventing the chaos that is being unleashed around the world in terms of climate catastrophe, in terms of the so-called foreign policy decisions of the Western countries. We will probably see a lot of energy focused on blocking all forms of human mobility and migration and militarizing the borders through that surveillance, primarily.<\/p>\n<p>National ID databases provide more and more ability to exclude anyone you want\u2014as India is doing, for example\u2014from voting, from opening a bank account, from essentially having any kind of economic life. We&#8217;re gonna see that kind of system create these digital borders, as well. And then there will need to be large concentration-camp like facilities to warehouse those people who are prevented from living any kind of flourishing life.<\/p>\n<p>In the process, I think domestic criminalization becomes a little bit less of the focus of the widespread obsession of their oppressive bureaucracies, but redefining who is part of the political community and then excluding other people from that community is going to be an increasing focus of these bureaucracies.<\/p>\n<p><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">brian bean:<\/span> I would describe the expanding presence and role of ICE agents as a component of the broader trend of a shifting intensification of the police state, of the police, of the different tools and institutions used for repression, and the other \u201cmain function[s]\u201d that Alec describes. Since 2008, the always crisis-prone system of capitalism has been in a period of protracted crisis, which has continued to unravel. The inability to resolve this crisis on the level of global politics meant that more and more of the impact has fallen on regular working people, the exploited, and the dispossessed. It has created political shockwaves paving the way for the rise of far right political parties around the world. The instability has also been met with global waves of revolt and uprising against states and governments that are more and more seen as illegitimate.<\/p>\n<p>In that context, the police are more and more the main \u201csolution\u201d being used to keep things in check, ensure that the wheels of profit keep churning, and squelch any resistance. This is the trend that we see in the increase of police funding overall. One example of this is that under Biden, police budgets went up 40 percent, with a third of that being on the federal level. Another is the terrifying expansion of forms of surveillance that Alec mentions, and a general centralization and militarization of existing police bodies. The massive funding increase for ICE\u2014a federal police agency\u2014is mind boggling. Trump has increased the budget to $85 billion, 14 times what it was ten years ago, putting the annual spending for ICE on par with the total military budget of the country of Brazil.<\/p>\n<aside class=\"pullquote\">&#8220;It is basically a scientific fact in policing that strategies constructed to target one part of the population finds its way to be used on other sections of the exploited and oppressed.&#8221;<\/aside>\n<p>The expansion of policing in the form of ICE is an expansion of violent tools being used to regulate and order working people. Of course, ICE\u2019s official focus is on increasing the deportability of immigrant workers, to feed the racist xenophobia that is on the rise around the world, and blame the system&#8217;s failures for regular people on immigrant workers rather than the vampiric billionaires. However, we should have no illusions that only those folks will feel the impacts. The goal is also to create a body loyal to the executive that can be used to intimidate and dominate political opponents. And it is basically a scientific fact in policing that strategies constructed to target one part of the population finds its way to be used on other sections of the exploited and oppressed. All the U.S. citizens wrongfully placed in immigrant detention, as well as the tragic cases of Alex Pretti and Ren\u00e9e Good, are just the beginning.<\/p>\n<p><strong><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">TC:<\/span> We have also seen the construction of new prisons to house asylum seekers and undocumented immigrants, as well as other people whose immigration status has been criminalized. What is your analysis of this expansion of carceral capacity, and how can we effectively resist it?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">bb:<\/span> The first thing to be said about the expansion of carceral capacity is to point to its grim continuity. Donald Trump is rightly receiving the focus now because of how he has mutated ICE, but that weapon was already forged by previous presidents, both Democrat and Republican. Trump&#8217;s border czar, Tom Homan, was of course given the highest civil service <a href=\"https:\/\/www.ice.gov\/news\/releases\/ero-ead-thomas-homan-receives-2015-presidential-rank-award\">award <\/a>by Barack Obama for the policy of creating the camps and the policy of family separation. Biden continued building Trump&#8217;s \u201cborder wall\u201d and deported more people than Trump had previously. Leading into the last presidential election, the Democrats took an even more hawkish approach and called the Republicans \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/rampantmag.com\/2026\/03\/abolish-ice-abolish-the-police\/\">too weak<\/a>\u201d for refusing to vote on their draconian border spending bill.<\/p>\n<aside class=\"pullquote\">&#8220;Donald Trump is rightly receiving the focus now because of how he has mutated ICE, but that weapon was already forged by previous presidents, both Democrat and Republican.&#8221;<\/aside>\n<p>All the things that we&#8217;re seeing Trump do are a dramatic escalation of tactics that were already being used. With that, the carceral expansion creates a real, dangerous situation. We see the new jails, the solidifying links with existing jails, the use of facilities outside of U.S. borders, and the creation of these kinds of mega-center detention facilities. Some <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/us-news\/2026\/feb\/13\/ice-warehouses-detention-centers-dhs\">$38 billion<\/a> is being allocated to the repurposing of large warehouses. And per the logic of capitalism, if you build beds, then they will find a way to fill those beds.<\/p>\n<p>This is the frightening terror that Trump has unlocked. There has been resistance against this terror in numerous<a href=\"https:\/\/www.npr.org\/2026\/03\/23\/g-s1-114107\/ices-growing-detention-footprint-and-the-communities-fighting-back\"> places<\/a>. In Kansas City, Oklahoma City and small towns like Merrimack, New Hampshire, pressure has pushed back and stopped several facilities. At the announcement of a plan in Hagerstown, Maryland, protests popped up in Baltimore. These new concentration camps are frightening expansions and exacerbations of the previous concentration camps, but are being met with resistance that really is just the beginning.<\/p>\n<p><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">AK:<\/span> I very much agree with brian. Especially the point that once you build these institutions, they will get used. And they almost always are used for populations that are much broader than the population that is initially targeted.<\/p>\n<p>We&#8217;re now told that they&#8217;re for warehousing \u201cviolent,\u201d \u201cillegal\u201d immigrants, as the Trump administration is calling these human beings. Obviously, the vast majority right now of people that are going to be thrown into these dungeons and concentration camps are gonna be immigrants who have never been accused of any crime or anything like that. That claim about criminality has always characterized the Democratic or Republican party approaches to immigration strategy over the last couple decades. It doesn&#8217;t make any sense for us on the Left to even talk about these distinctions, but I&#8217;m just pointing out that the justifications that are being given to the public are false from the very beginning.<\/p>\n<p>And then they&#8217;re going to be expanded much, much more to non-immigrants, to political enemies, to dissidents, to anybody who is seen as posing any kind of threat to the ruling class elite and to the fascist program.<\/p>\n<p>I don&#8217;t think this is in tension with what I was saying earlier about the increasing reliance of these repressive bureaucracies on surveillance, though, and less on caging. I would be surprised if the overall human caging population in the United States grew substantially. I think what we&#8217;re going to see is an attempt to use the combination of the massive increase in surveillance and the more kind of arbitrary detentions targeted at a cascading list of supposed enemies. The combination of those two things works very well for the fascists. The fact that it can be arbitrary at any given time, but also the fact that anybody who does certain things to challenge anyone in power knows they&#8217;re going to be targeted.<\/p>\n<p>I think we&#8217;re gonna see that used and weaponized in ways that try to shape public behavior without resorting to the kind of mass human caging that we necessarily saw over the last several decades. I think what we&#8217;re seeing now in terms of the attempting to buy warehouses, I see that not as trying to increase the long-term capacity of detention, but to centralize control over detention away from state and local governments, and toward sort of a sort of modern Brown-shirt and Gestapo-like collaboration that becomes its own federal force that has its own capacity to act without trying to coordinate all of these other local and state agencies and institutions that have their own pressures and administrative and local kind of \u201cinefficiencies.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I also want to make another point. I think brian was getting at something very important with the fact that these things are not new. I want to add that the only way this kind of thing is possible is through a profound, pervasive, cultural desensitization to mass imprisonment, to mass human caging, to mass surveillance, particularly of vulnerable and marginalized populations. The U.S. public has been so desensitized to this, right? The U.S. has been caging five to 10 times the rate of our population as other comparable countries and putting Black people in cages at six times the rate of South Africa at the height of apartheid for the last few decades.<\/p>\n<p>This has so normalized the idea that the government can put human beings in cages for the flimsiest of reasons, or indeed for no reason at all, and with no evidence that it does anyone any good, and with massive evidence that it does extraordinary amount of harm to the even possibility of a decent life. As of right now, the excess human caging in the United States compared to other countries, and even its own historical average from 1980, is actually costing about two years of life expectancy overall for all people in the United States.<\/p>\n<p>It&#8217;s doing that in spite of all those consequences, and what that&#8217;s done is it has altered and mangled our psyches and our collective sense of what government and what society are. What scares me a lot is we now have a more overtly and more all-encompassing fascist movement that is going to take that cultural preparatory work that has been done by Democrats and Republicans alike for the last few decades, and it&#8217;s going to supercharge it in ways that are unconstrained by some of the liberal constraints that might have been on these systems beforehand.<\/p>\n<p>So, it&#8217;s extremely important in this moment that we resist, in every possible location. We need to be, basically, everywhere around the country, standing up and saying, human beings matter, human connection matters, state violence matters. Any attempt by the government to put someone in a cage, to separate them from their families, to control their lives, to surveil and monitor and harass them\u2014any attempt to do that is a violation of the most sacred principles that any human society that cares about flourishing and freedom and equality and justice has to hold dear.<\/p>\n<aside class=\"pullquote\">&#8220;It&#8217;s extremely important in this moment that we resist, in every possible location. We need to be, basically, everywhere around the country, standing up and saying, human beings matter, human connection matters, state violence matters.&#8221;<\/aside>\n<p>It&#8217;s only going to be the thousands and thousands of communities coming together and articulating that that has a chance of changing the cultural zeitgeist, because I think we&#8217;re at a really dangerous time when people feel really cynical, people feel really hopeless, people feel like maybe none of it matters. We have to find a way in that resistance to reassert that these things do matter\u2014and indeed they are all that matters in a society that values a decent life.<\/p>\n<p><strong><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">TC:<\/span> How do you see the propaganda specific to ICE in this moment and the narratives that are being used to legitimize their violence, including brazen murder of people who&#8217;ve shown up in acts of witness, community defense, and protest?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">AK:<\/span> Let me start by saying that none of this would be possible without decades of propaganda. In fact, over the last five or six years, since the uprisings in 2020, extraordinary, bipartisan propaganda, particularly from the so-called liberal news media, from academic institutions, and from nonprofits, created this completely false idea that we&#8217;re in the middle of some kind of crime wave and played upon those fears.<\/p>\n<p>Let me just give you a couple of pieces of information that I think you need to understand the moment that we&#8217;re in from a propaganda perspective. Over the last 25 years, police-reported crime has been going down almost every single year. And in the polling of the public, people believe crime is going up almost every single year. When I say police-reported crime, as I talk about in <a href=\"https:\/\/thenewpress.org\/books\/copaganda\/\">my book<\/a>, I&#8217;m talking about the crimes that the police choose to track. I&#8217;m not talking about crimes committed by wealthy and powerful people, or corporations, or corruption. I&#8217;m talking about the crimes that you see on the nightly news in high volume, crimes that the police associate with the poorest people in our society. That is at historic lows. Like, like a 50-, 60-, 70-year low since we started really tracking this stuff in the modern era. So, according to their own information, society is the safest it&#8217;s ever been.<\/p>\n<aside class=\"pullquote\">&#8220;[S]ince the uprisings in 2020, extraordinary, bipartisan propaganda, particularly from the so-called liberal news media, from academic institutions, and from nonprofits, created this completely false idea that we&#8217;re in the middle of some kind of crime wave and played upon those fears.&#8221;<\/aside>\n<p>I could do the same thing with immigrants, by the way. This fear-mongering around waves of migration, caravans, and all of this stuff that we&#8217;ve seen over the last ten years. This is basically fabricated. Every suggestion that either there&#8217;s an increase in crime, or that any increases that there are in short-term fluctuations are associated with some kind of progressive policy is like climate science denial. It&#8217;s completely fabricated, and yet that is the water that we&#8217;re all swimming in.<\/p>\n<p>So, the fundamental and first thing to understand about the lay of the land before the ICE murders in Minnesota is that the population has been brought to a level of fear such that they are willing to accept forms of repression that they wouldn&#8217;t otherwise accept. That&#8217;s one of the goals of fear-based propaganda.<\/p>\n<p>The second thing I want to say, though, is that in Copaganda and in general, my most significant intellectual interest is actually not in far-right propaganda. I&#8217;m a lot less interested in the New York Post or Fox News. Particularly, I&#8217;m not as interested intellectually in the propaganda of Tom Homan, or Kristi Noem, or Stephen Miller, or Donald Trump. I think that is crucially important, but I actually think it&#8217;s relatively easy to understand what they&#8217;re saying and doing about ICE. I actually think that propaganda has been relatively ineffective for most of the population. They&#8217;re not trying to influence most of the population when they come out and say the things they did about the agents that killed Ren\u00e9e Good and Alex Pretti. They&#8217;re directing that propaganda at their right-wing base. That&#8217;s propaganda designed to foment anger and fear and hostility and bloodlust among a very organized and smaller portion of the population.<\/p>\n<p>Speaking only personally and in terms of my own role concerning where I feel I can make a difference, I\u2019m much more interested in identifying and talking about the propaganda that we&#8217;ve seen within what I&#8217;ll call the kind of broader antifascist segment of the population: from mainstream corporate news and apologists for genocide and human caging and repression, like Ezra Klein, all the way to the Left. I&#8217;m interested in the mythologies and stories and propaganda that is being weaponized against ordinary non-fascist people in this moment.<\/p>\n<p>To me, the most important one is that they are trying to tell us that ICE is somehow different from and unrelated to all these other repressive institutions. That it&#8217;s different from the FBI and the DEA and the local police, and the fusion centers, and it&#8217;s different from what ICE used to be several years ago with Obama, when they gave awards to Tom Homan. They&#8217;re trying to tell us the same things they told us in the wake of Michael Brown&#8217;s killing in Ferguson, the same thing they told us after Breonna Taylor was killed, the same thing they told us after George Floyd was killed, which is that these institutions just need a little bit of reform.<\/p>\n<p>ICE needs to be given body cameras. They need to be given better training. Never mind the fact that the person who killed Ren\u00e9e Good was literally filming himself and that he was a firearms trainer. So, there&#8217;s this attempt in the wake of all this to tell liberals and well-meaning people and people to the left of the antifascist coalition, \u201cThere&#8217;s a few bad apples here. And, yes, they&#8217;ve done some bad things, but what we need to do is reinvest in these systems. We will give them more resources, and they&#8217;ll be able to correct themselves. Let&#8217;s put the Democrats back in charge of these institutions, and everything will be okay.\u201d That&#8217;s the kind of propaganda that I spend my book analyzing, and I pick it apart because it&#8217;s so essential that we understand that all of it is alluring but false.<\/p>\n<p>These issues go way deeper, and it&#8217;s a distraction to get people focused on little tweaks when we need to be dismantling and abolishing these systems. Which is a very good transition to your <a href=\"https:\/\/www.haymarketbooks.org\/books\/2540-their-end-is-our-beginning\">new book<\/a>, brian.<\/p>\n<p><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">bb:<\/span> I agree. An anecdote that to me is really telling about the propaganda and the racist dog-whistling attacks on immigrants is the story of Iryna Zarutska. Zarutska was a Ukrainian refugee who was stabbed to death in Charlotte, North Carolina last year. Her murder became this cause c\u00e9l\u00e8bre of Trump and all the right-wingers, with Trump highlighting her in the State of the Union address and promoting the story that her death was the result of open borders. In North Carolina, in response, they passed a state <a href=\"https:\/\/abc11.com\/post\/nc-irynas-law-takes-effect-named-ukrainian-refugee-was-stabbed-killed-charlotte-light-rail\/18236480\/\">law<\/a> that made it harder for people to get bail.<\/p>\n<p>This is linked to what Alec points out really well in his book about one of the functions of copaganda being to obscure what the real harm is. And so, in this story of this woman who was murdered, it wasn&#8217;t an immigrant who killed Zarutska, but a man who had severe mental health issues. A few months prior the man, Decarlos Brown, called 911 in an attempt to get help and be hospitalized. Not not only did they refuse to hospitalize him, but they charged him with the crime of \u201cmisusing 911\u201d and then released him again without the services he needed. Then he stabs Iryna Zarutska.<\/p>\n<p>So this story that&#8217;s used by Trump to promote the idea \u201copen borders got this refugee woman killed\u201d actually is a story about the severe lack of mental health services in this country and the intense carceralization of all responses to the mental health crisis. This mythology is so pervasive in the lies that Alec just described.<\/p>\n<p>The second point in what Alec is talking about is essential\u2014the liberal mythologies seeking to distance ICE from regular policing that are dangerous. For example, look at the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/us-news\/2026\/feb\/05\/democrats-ice-reforms-funding-bill\">10-point plan<\/a> that the Democrats are putting forward. These reforms, if enacted, include introducing use of body cameras, the wearing of common uniforms with proper visible badges and identification, ending the use of masks to hide agents faces, mandating use of judicial warrants, applying use for force guidelines. These so-called reforms essentially just make ICE more like cops.<\/p>\n<aside class=\"pullquote\">&#8220;Look at the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/us-news\/2026\/feb\/05\/democrats-ice-reforms-funding-bill\">10-point plan<\/a> that the Democrats are putting forward.(&#8230;) These so-called reforms essentially just make ICE more like cops.&#8221;<\/aside>\n<p>But if we have any understanding about what cops do and how much social harm they cause, we see that these reforms are not a solution at all. Cops kill more people every year and have done so for the past several years. They have no real effect on crime rates. They don\u2019t resolve social issues like the mental health crisis and domestic violence. They are a brutal, useless institution. We can go <a href=\"https:\/\/www.haymarketbooks.org\/books\/2540-their-end-is-our-beginning\">on and on<\/a> and on.<\/p>\n<p>So, the notion of reforming ICE in this way\u2014to make this massively bloated expansion of state repression look more like cops\u2014legitimizes ICE and institutionalizes what should be seen as an intensification of the police state, an expansion of potential fascism, and something that needs to be contested thoroughly and pulled out from the roots. The copaganda that presents anything less than abolishing ICE as productive is something we have to militantly reject.<\/p>\n<p><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">AK:<\/span> I wrote a separate study of 10 years of body camera propaganda in particular, called <a href=\"https:\/\/bpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com\/campuspress.yale.edu\/dist\/f\/4764\/files\/2024\/07\/Alec-Karakatsanis_The-Body-Camera-FINAL.pdf\">The Body Camera: The Language of Our Dreams<\/a>, and I have a little bit about this in the Copaganda book. I think the body camera is the most successful propaganda campaign in modern history. It&#8217;s a great way to understand so many other aspects of liberal reformist discourse. It&#8217;s something that the multi-billion dollar surveillance industry and cops and prosecutors wanted desperately for a long time, and they actually couldn&#8217;t get the billions of dollars it would take, until they reframed it as something that they all wanted into something that was about accountability.<\/p>\n<p>It&#8217;s a fascinating story, and it&#8217;s important that people understand the role that liberal nonprofits like the ACLU, a lot of university professors, and the mainstream news media played. All of which, including Vox and the New York Times and all these institutions and people who are portrayed as liberal, are the ones that sold the public on body cameras as a mechanism of \u201creform,\u201d even though they are probably the most successful expansion of police surveillance technology and are used almost exclusively against the poorest people in our society in low-level cases every single day. From ten years of research, we know they do not make the police any less violent or accountable.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, these are facts. It&#8217;s actually the official position, by the way, of the United States Department of Justice, that body cameras don&#8217;t work. In spite of that, it&#8217;s one of the main things the Democratic Party is saying right now, and you have to understand this as part of a much broader propaganda effort across a lot of domains that basically does one thing: it uses the violence, corruption, and incompetence of the punishment bureaucracy as an excuse to get that bureaucracy more resources.<\/p>\n<aside class=\"pullquote\">&#8220;I think the body camera is the most successful propaganda campaign in modern history.&#8221;<\/aside>\n<p>The corporate entities that are parasitic on that bureaucracy, multi-billion dollar industries, at every stage have become very adept at working with the police, prosecutors, and lobbyists to convert their own violence into more money.<\/p>\n<p>I&#8217;ll just point out the incredible <a href=\"https:\/\/scholars.duke.edu\/person\/bocar.ba\/research\">research<\/a> of the economist Bocar Ba at Duke University, who did one of the most important and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nber.org\/papers\/w31606\">illuminating studies<\/a> on this, where he and some other folks looked at the stock prices of policing industry companies. And in the very short window after high-profile police killings of Black people in the United States, the police surveillance industry stocks outperform the market and go up.<\/p>\n<p>A lot of liberals would say, oh, well, you know, all these policing companies, their stock should go down right after the police kill someone, right? But the market and sophisticated investors and these companies understand that actually this violence is good for them, because they&#8217;re so good at taking liberal lack of understanding and liberal propaganda around these systems, and converting that into more money for them when they do horrific things.<\/p>\n<p><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">bb:<\/span> As the abolitionist Naomi Murakawa said, reforms do work . . . for the police.<\/p>\n<p><strong><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">TC:<\/span> The abolitionist movement swelled into the mainstream in 2020 through the uprisings for Black Lives in an unprecedented way. Since then, we&#8217;ve seen and experienced the state&#8217;s backlash against those uprisings, the genocide of Palestine by Israel, the mass expansion of ICE, and the criminalization of anyone who stands against these things. What do you feel is the state of the struggle towards abolition today?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">bb:<\/span> In 2020, the burning down of a police precinct in Minneapolis was more popular than both presidential candidates of the two major parties. The impact of what the New York Times identified as the largest protest movement in the history of the country was really shocking to the ruling class. That&#8217;s why in response you saw the Republicans go bananas with an avalanche of cooked-up doom and gloom, apocalyptic stories of crime waves and unmanageable cities.<\/p>\n<p>At the same time we saw the Democrats go full court press to try to bury any notion of defunding the police\u2014for all its limitations, the organic demand of the uprising and one potentially struck at the core of police legitimacy. They got Obama off the bench to <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nbcnews.com\/politics\/politics-news\/obama-suggests-slogans-defund-police-are-counterproductive-n1249717\">chastise<\/a> the movement and say that this is not a responsible position to have. Biden <a href=\"https:\/\/www.businessinsider.com\/biden-told-civil-rights-leaders-avoid-defund-the-police-slogan-2020-12\">met<\/a> with a series of civil rights leaders directly after his election to say, \u201cI&#8217;m not going to defund.\u201d The late, great Mike Davis <a href=\"https:\/\/newleftreview.org\/sidecar\/posts\/thanatos-triumphant\">described <\/a>the moment this way: \u201cTrayvon Martin and George Floyd are now just roadkill rapidly vanishing from sight in the rear-view mirror of the presidential limousine as Biden rushes around reassuring the cops that he\u2019s their best friend.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That is the context for some of the difficulties that the abolitionist movement has had in organizing sustainable vessels after 2020. While there is very little organizational infrastructure that we were able to pull together out of this truly mass movement, it is also the case that there was a really powerful change in consciousness that you mentioned in your question. Of the literal tens of millions of people who participated in this movement, among many there is an abolitionist sense that, hey, maybe police don&#8217;t keep us safe. Maybe there are other ways to handle these social ills that the police are ostensibly for. The challenge is how we organize an independent force that can fight for demands, be clear in its goals, and provide an alternative political vision and counterforce to the dominance of liberal reformism. I think that the completely traitorous behavior of the Democratic Party needs to be seen as such and that the movement that is built, that is organized, is politically independent. I think this is really, really necessary.<\/p>\n<p>If you think about the context of Palestine, you see another wave of that. Palestine was sand in the eye of the Democrats because it also spoke to the other weakness of the party, which as an imperialist party has been as Zionist as they come. And it <a href=\"https:\/\/www.axios.com\/2026\/02\/22\/dnc-2024-autopsy-harris-gaza\">lost<\/a> them the election against Trump. Police\u2014and, by extension, ICE\u2014and imperialism are at the root of these twin radicalisms that really cut to the core about how undemocratic and violent the U.S. state is that I think needs further and deeper independent organization.<\/p>\n<p>The movement opposing ICE is a really powerful arena to try to bring those politics, and connect up a lot of these questions and threads that Alec and I are both talking about. We need to link the sentiment of anger and opposition to ICE kidnapping our neighbors with the question of policing, the question of state violence as a whole.<\/p>\n<p>Michael Macher <a href=\"https:\/\/www.phenomenalworld.org\/analysis\/enforcement-regime\/\">called <\/a>the expansion of ICE Trump&#8217;s \u201cdomestic policing omniforce.\u201d The explicitly antagonistic police state that was always there before, that we see that every time they repress our protests in the streets, every time they harass and murder Black folk, is now more blatant and flirting with fascism. It needs to be opposed, smashed, torn down.<\/p>\n<aside class=\"pullquote\">&#8220;The explicitly antagonistic police state that was always there before&#8230;needs to be opposed, smashed, torn down.&#8221;<\/aside>\n<p>All the people who flooded into the streets in Minneapolis and elsewhere after the killings of Ren\u00e9e Good and Alex Pretti have to be connected with a project that is firmly opposed, and abolitionist in orientation, toward the question of the police, toward the question of state, and in building an antagonistic force, independently, from below. Of course, that is a really big challenge, but just being in the streets in 2020, seeing the protests around Palestine, the student encampments, and seeing my neighbors in Chicago swell into the streets with whistles anytime ICE comes by, shows the potential and the possibility. I think abolitionist politics have a really important role to play in trying to push and connect things up to the larger questions of state violence, of the police, and building an independent movement.<\/p>\n<p><span class=\"dropcap-speaker\">AK:<\/span> That was really well said. Before I say some positive words about the state of abolition, I want to acknowledge we are in a very dangerous time. We are in a time of extreme mobility of the fascist corners of our society. They&#8217;re highly organized, they&#8217;re in power, they sense an opportunity. So, while I think, for the reasons I&#8217;ll describe in a minute, there is opportunity for us on the Left\u2014and opportunity particularly in abolitionist circles\u2014there&#8217;s also extraordinary opportunity for the fascists. Part of that is because of the collapse of some of the institutional and ideological frameworks that propped up the neoliberal state.<\/p>\n<p>So, I think there&#8217;s opportunity on both sides. I&#8217;m obviously, again, being oversimplistic, but I just want to say there are reasons to be very afraid right now.<\/p>\n<p>I&#8217;m going to focus, though, on some things that I think are reasons to be optimistic or things that are new that I see as potential opportunities for the abolitionist movement.<\/p>\n<p>Number one, over the last few years, especially since Michael Brown&#8217;s killing in Ferguson, but even before that, with a lot of the organizing and intellectual work done around the system of mass human caging in our society, there has been extraordinary increase in the level of consciousness of people about the police and what they do, and about prisons and what goes on there. About family separation and how horrific it is. That is a really good development.<\/p>\n<p>Many, many, many more people are engaged in some way around these issues than when I began working in these areas. That&#8217;s important. A lot of people, as brian mentioned, were out in the streets in 2020. They learned something. Their consciousness was changed and that is still there. Maybe it&#8217;s dormant now in some ways, you know, we&#8217;re under siege in so many ways, and it doesn&#8217;t feel like we have the same energy that we did a few years ago, but a transformation happened. And it&#8217;s there, it&#8217;s latent, it&#8217;s waiting for the next iteration in our movements. It&#8217;s waiting for the next moment of the whirlwind.<\/p>\n<aside class=\"pullquote\">&#8220;[W]e&#8217;re under siege in so many ways, and it doesn&#8217;t feel like we have the same energy that we did a few years ago, but a transformation happened. And it&#8217;s there, it&#8217;s latent, it&#8217;s waiting for the next iteration in our movements.&#8221;<\/aside>\n<p>And we might be entering such a moment with ICE. I think that there is tremendous energy around our society with respect to ICE, with respect to artificial intelligence, and the loss of control that people feel, not just over their own lives and their own brains, which are under relentless assault, but also their own communities. We talked a little bit earlier about the warehouses that ICE is trying to buy everywhere, but they&#8217;re also trying to build data centers everywhere. All of this is related.<\/p>\n<p>There&#8217;s also a sense that, in many communities, a lot of this stuff is made possible by a certain alienation, a certain loneliness, a certain lack of relationship with others. And we&#8217;re seeing really exciting, nascent movements, like brian mentioned Chicago, but also, another just obvious example is Minnesota. Not just Minneapolis, but across Minnesota. People came together and built these incredible networks, and were getting groceries for their neighbors. We&#8217;re having chains where the one bag of groceries was handled in three different ways so no one could be followed to its ultimate destination, and that takes sophisticated work. In the process of that, a lot of relationships were built, and a deep level of consciousness was created about the beauty and the power of coming together in our own community to solve problems.<\/p>\n<p>So, those are all really positive, because people are experiencing that right now. And whenever a new city is announced as the next ground for ICE, I&#8217;m hearing lots of stories from local organizers about the preparation that they&#8217;re doing, about the extraordinary levels of interest, people calling in, coming to events, asking to be part of phone trees, asking where they can sign up to bring groceries, following ICE. So, that&#8217;s all really exciting.<\/p>\n<p>Another positive I think is an area of consciousness that has been increasingly growing is that the old liberal solutions to all these problems\u2014trumpted in philanthropy and liberal media\u2014are totally failed. Any legitimate social movement that&#8217;s going to create a vastly more equal society is not going to be primarily organized by the richest people in our society giving away small crumbs from what they make.<\/p>\n<p>So, what I&#8217;ve seen on the Left, even just in the course of the last 15 years that I&#8217;ve been really engaged in this community, is a deeper and more sophisticated understanding among a much larger number of people about how we need to be solving these problems ourselves, without relying on grants from philanthropy. That&#8217;s not to say that there is no good charitable work being done\u2014and I obviously run a nonprofit organization that does get grants. I&#8217;m talking about the overall consciousness about the kinds of activities that are going to actually lead to widespread liberation.<\/p>\n<p>The same is true with respect to the media. I think the traditional establishment, capitalist, neoliberal, corporate media has lost a lot of their seemingly impenetrable wall of dominance. That&#8217;s an opportunity for us, as well.<\/p>\n<p>Then, I think, finally, this is a little bit more inchoate: there&#8217;s a really deep sense in which people are yearning for the truth. Especially post-genocide\u2014and the way in which the Democratic Party cheer-led and participated in and was complicit in the most horrific crime of all, which is genocide, and the way it distracted and lied about it.<\/p>\n<p>I think people are really yearning for a new kind of political moment where people just treat them as adults and tell them the truth. And that&#8217;s very promising. Maybe not in the Democratic Party&#8217;s actual membership in terms of, like, national elected office, but at the grassroots level in communities that I&#8217;m in all over the country, I see a much more concerted effort on behalf of the grassroots base to call it like it is, to tell the truth, to say 2 plus 2 equals 4. And to build a new politics around that. That, in my crude assessment, is the heart of why Zohran Mamdani was so popular and won the New York mayor&#8217;s race. I think people saw him as somebody willing to just say certain truths in a few basic ways.<\/p>\n<p>I&#8217;m not saying that everything he said is true or that I support everything he did in the campaign, but I&#8217;m just saying there was this sense that his campaign resonated with some core truths, both factually and more moral truths in a rejection of the lies of the standard Democratic establishment. Those are just some broader themes that make me a little bit optimistic.<\/p>\n<hr class=\"half\" \/>\n<p><small><em>Opinions expressed in signed articles do not necessarily represent the views of the editors or the Tempest Collective. For more information, see \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.tempestmag.org\/about\/\">About Tempest Collective<\/a>.\u201d<\/em><\/small><br \/>\n<small>Featured Image credit: <a href=\"https:\/\/commons.wikimedia.org\/wiki\/File:Minnesota_State_Patrol_Troopers_on_Scene_of_George_Floyd_Protest,_29_May_2020.jpg\">Tony Webster<\/a>; modified by Tempest.<\/small><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Tempest interviews <strong>Alec Karakatsanis<\/strong> and<strong> brian bean<\/strong> about ICE, the police state, and the tasks for abolitionists today.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":455,"featured_media":14768,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[4,8],"tags":[217,73],"class_list":["post-14766","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-article","category-interview","tag-ice","tag-police"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/test02\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/30.png","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/test02\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/14766","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/test02\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/test02\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/test02\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/455"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/test02\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=14766"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/test02\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/14766\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/test02\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/14768"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/test02\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=14766"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/test02\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=14766"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/tempestmag.org\/test02\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=14766"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}